The Prince's Mayday Network

With the recent introduction of a compulsory charge on carrier bags in Wales we are interested to hear what businesses think of it. How have consumers reacted? What will be the impact of the same law in England?

Come back here at 1pm on Tuesday 22nd November for a lively debate. If you have any questions for our panel please email them to hello@maydaynetwork.com

Welcome to the Prince’s Mayday Network’s second online lunchtime debate. Today we will be discussing the issue of charging for carrier bags in light of the new legislation that was brought in on October 1st 2011 in Wales.

We have Bob Gordon, Environmental Policy Adviser from The British Retail Consortium joining us online today. He is here to answer any questions retailers have and to join in the debate.

To start us off Bob are you able to shed light on what the British Retail Consortium’s view is on compulsory charging for carrier bags?

The BRC does not support a compulsory charge on carrier bags. The main reason is that it introduces burdens for retailers and costs for customers. Now is not the time to introduce additional burdens given the economic climate.

The figures suggest that a charge on carrier bags would do little to reduce the UK's environmental footprint. Single use carrier bags make up less than 1% of the domestic waste stream and around 5% of litter. So, there are extra costs, whilst the benefits are not compelling.

To compound the issue - most of the people within retail who have spent a lot of time working on the introduction of the charge are also working on wider environmental sustainability. Every hour I spend working on carrier bags is an hour I'm not spending on the transormative change to a sustainable future!

Bob, do you think it does anything in terms of consumer behaviour change and makes consumers think about other ways they can reduce their environmental impacts?

Do you not think it's a good idea for Wales, Bob?

The Welsh Government and Cardiff University are undertaking some research into the effect of the carrier bag charge on consumer behaviour and the results of this research should be available in July 2012.

The behaviour change question is an interesting one. Under a voluntary agreement between the major grocery retailers and the UK governments we have seen a reduction of 40% in the number of carrier bags distributed over 5 years, despite an increase in sales. That has levelled off in the last year (a 5% increase since 2010) - so we think we have reached a point where achieving further behaviour change is becoming increasingly difficult.
We believe that the way to achieve behaviour change is to engage the public on the issues, to educate and to involve. Consumers will buy into behaviour change if they understand what they can do and what will make a difference.

Putting a charge on carrier bags will anger many people and put them off the environmental agenda altogether.
So it will have different impacts on different people. It needs to be part of a wider programme of activity to change consumer understanding and behaviour

Thanks for your comments so far. If you could state who is talking before you post that would be great.

Do you not think it's a good idea for Wales, Bob?

I'm mixed on it. Initial evidence suggests that there will be around an 80% reduction in Wales. That is clearly a good thing, but back to the initial point. Where does it fit in with the wider tranformation to a sustainable future? And should we adopt an approach that relies on additional charges to change behaviour? There is some really exciting stuff going on in retail to reduce the impacts of retail operations and address product sustainability that work with the grain of business. The charge on carrier bags is not one of them.

Bonnie here (BITC Wales)- some statistics published by the Western Mail this morning state that the expected drop in single use carrier bags is 90% on the usual 350 million. This is a good thing surely?

Bob - this debate is quite timely given the reaction from other retailers today regarding the fact that Ocado does not have to charge for bags. How did this loophole occur and what do you think the solution is?

The Ocado issue is one that we will need to resolve as quickly as possible. The officials working on the charge deemed that the Ocado process is such that they should qualify for an exemption from the charge - because the bags are an integral part of their process - they need to use the bags as part of their packing process.
The problem is that when it comes to grocery delivery - the bags are an essential part of the process for other retailers too. For example, for bagless deliveries bags are still used for bleach and fresh meets - these are clearly to provide additional protection from spills but the officials consider these to be single use carrier bags to enable goods to be delivered. It feels contradictory. Also - Sainsbury's have removed single use bags from their in-store offer, but they have been unable to do so in deliveries because the bags are an integral part of the process.

The solution is to interpret the regulations consistently. Either all grocery retailers have to charge for carrier bags when delivering groceries, or none of them do. But to make an exemption based on process is not appropriate. When is a single use carrier bag not a single use carrier bag?

Are there Welsh retailers online now that can give us their practical thoughts on this...?

Or perhaps some of the environmental initiatives that are getting some of the funds from the scheme...?

Would be interesting to hear both sides of the argument....

Hi Bob, John Dyson from the British Hospitality Association – BHA.

Interested to see your comments Bob, on behaviour change and the effectiveness of the charge.

I’d like to raise an issue that particularly affects the BHA’s members: the food safety implications of re-using bags in the take-away sector. This is an issue which was overlooked in Wales and which should be considered carefully by the WAG, as well as other markets considering introducing a similar charge is the potential food safety implications of re-using bags in the take-away sector.

The British Hospitality Association has commissioned independent research into the reuse of carrier bags in the take-away sector to ascertain the dangers and whether this could lead to serious illness.

The review of existing scientific evidence has identified that contact with the contaminated surface of a previously used (multiuse) bag is likely to lead to the undesirable transfer of bacteria onto the ‘ready to eat’ product in the bag. This indicates a potentially significant risk of bacterial cross contamination in relation to the use of reusable bags to carry hot food items.

Also- given the food safety concerns outlined above, consumers have no option but to pay for a bag, as they cannot safely ‘opt-out’ of the charge by carrying a reusable alternative. These charges therefore impose an unfair tax on consumers of food on-the-go at a time when they can least afford it.

Would be interested to hear your views – is this an issue the BRC is concerned about also?

While we wait for others to respond perhaps I could ask you Bob what your thoughts are on the money going to environmental initiatives - will this give mixed messages to consumers? That it's OK to use bags as they are donating to good causes...?

Hi John, thanks for your comments. Our views are very much aligned with yours. The purpose of the charge was to provide further incentive for customers to reuse their bags when they go shopping. An argument sued repeatedly by officials was that it is not a tax because customers simply need to reuse their bags. I completely accept the point that this is not an option in food service. We share the same concerns about health if customers start to reuse their bags.

My understanding is that people in Wales have responded badly to the introduction of a charge on the food service sector. Have you had the same feedback?

Bethan - LEQ Team
The Welsh Government has been asked to provide advice to a number of retailers on the application of the Regulations within their business. When we have done so, we have tried to include as many of these scenarios in the guidance document as possible. However, this is our view and the ultimate intepretation of the law rests with the enforcement officers and the courts. The Welsh Government were asked for our view and this is what we provided; our view based on the information provided.

On the question of money going to environmental initiatives and whether it will give mixed messages to consumers -

I don't see a contradiction - the main message is to reuse your bags. And I think that its a good thing that the money goes to good causes. Officials were always clear that the purpose of the charge is to reduce the number of single use bags used in Wales - so where the money goes is a secondary issue. Given that we do not expect the charge to eliminate carrier bags completely - surely it is a good thing that the money goes to good causes.

(Bonnie, BITC Wales)
Another statistic from this morning's news on the topic of the money going to charity- £2.6million is the expected amount 'raised' in the 1st year from the charges.

Bob - do you think retailers are doing enough to encourage consumers to reuse bags in other areas where there is no compulsory charge as yet? Do you think there needs to be more education for the smaller retailers and who should be responsible for this?

Thanks Bob,

In response to your question, yes you’re right – our members have reported that consumers in Wales seemed confused about the charge and were surprised to find that it applied to the take-away sector.

Picking up on some of your earlier comments, BHA agrees that carrier bag charging is a distraction from efforts that could be spent on other sustainability initiatives.

The BHA and its members take sustainability issues very seriously, and have numerous initiatives in place for cutting carbon emissions and waste. For example, the BHA is working with WRAP (Waste and Resources Action Programme) across the UK on initiatives to reduce food waste in the catering sector.

But we strongly believe that charging for single-use carrier bags is not the right approach for our sector. Experience in Wales shows that most customers continue to buy bags with their hot food on-the-go purchases - and so we have to question the impact of this charge on behaviour change, and carbon savings, in the take-away sector.

Thanks Bob,

In response to your question, yes you’re right – our members have reported that consumers in Wales seemed confused about the charge and were surprised to find that it applied to the take-away sector.

Picking up on some of your earlier comments, BHA agrees that carrier bag charging is a distraction from efforts that could be spent on other sustainability initiatives.

The BHA and its members take sustainability issues very seriously, and have numerous initiatives in place for cutting carbon emissions and waste. For example, the BHA is working with WRAP (Waste and Resources Action Programme) across the UK on initiatives to reduce food waste in the catering sector.

But we strongly believe that charging for single-use carrier bags is not the right approach for our sector. Experience in Wales shows that most customers continue to buy bags with their hot food on-the-go purchases - and so we have to question the impact of this charge on behaviour change, and carbon savings, in the take-away sector.

(Bonnie)

Living in Wales, it is evident that although maybe people (as in the consumers) may not be entirely happy with the enforcement, most understand the need for it, and are happy that it is not a tax, but indeed an 'opt in' (or out!) charge with an easy and free alternative. It might be hard to change habits for a while, but it will soon become more of the 'norm' to always carry a bag with you.
It's great to see the general public walking around with their reusable bags around the city centres and in supermarkets- and seems to be working well.

Bob, what is your view on the exemptions for raw products?
The industry does not think they go far enough.

(Bonnie)

Apart from the takeaway sector with its evident problems, how have people's customers reacted to the charge? Any examples of good/ bad responses? Has it made a difference to the amount of bags you are having to buy in?

Are retailers doing enough to reduce bag use?
Retailers have done a lot to encourage reuse. The figures speak for themselves - a 40% absolute reduction over 5 years is the kind of result other environmental issues can only dream of.
There is a limit to the extent that a retailer can push the issue. Not all customers perceive carrier bags as an environmental evil - indeed, most customers who take a bag need a bag on the day, and as part of their customer service retailers provide them with that service. The impact of carrier bags should not be seen in isolation. We need to keep the imapct of carrier bags in perspective, and we need to view the issues alongside the other initiatives to support customers to reduce their impact - as well as providing customers with the goods and services they desire.

Bonnie
Just to reinforce my comments earler that we see the use of reuseaable bags in the food service sector as a food safety issue and hence we do not believe the charge should be applied to this sector
John

On exemptions for raw products -

We need to be pragmatic about this. If a product needs additional protection, that protection should be provided free of charge. I would be extremely disappointed if Trading Standards tried to prosecute a case where a carrier bag was used to provide additional protection for raw meet where there was some leakage on the outside of the packaging.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL YOUR COMMENTS AND TO BOB FOR YOUR INSIGHTS FROM THE BRITISH RETAIL CONSORTIUM. IF ANYONE HAS ANY FURTHER COMMENTS PLEASE EMAIL HELLO@MAYDAYNETWORK.COM

WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU AT THE NEXT ONLINE LUNCHTIME DEBATE.

Bonnie - I'm guessing you support the charge?

We received some feedback initally of bad customer reactions. Some customers walked out without their shopping. Some reports of customers stealing shopping baskets. And plenty of examples of anger at the till. My understanding is that this has calmed down, although there are some sectors where it remains an issue. You rightly highlight food service. Another is high-end clothing. If you are buying a ball dress or a suit there is a feeling that to charge 5p for the bag is not appropriate. Customers are spending a lot of money and want to protect a valuable item before wearing it. You could argue that if someone is spending a lot of money on an item that the 5p doesn't matter - but its the principle.

On the number of bags being bought in - clearly this will have an impact as less are given out.

Bethan
On the issue of raw meat etc. The exemptions are there to ensure that a barrier bag is provided for packaged raw meat as we are aware of the health issue here. However, we are getting comments that retailers are not using the exemptions and asking customers to pay for barrier bags as well. In these cases, it would be useful if the retailers could indicate that this is their individual policy and not the Welsh Government.